PayPal on EBAY versus PayPal on your own website - Buyer Protection Policy

[Modee]

When you accept PayPal on EBAY, as must 90% of the poor souls on EBAY, (Alternatives include cartmanager + Google Checkout):
Cartmanager - how does it work? - Free EBAY, PayPal, Business and Law Forums - Ebay Suspension, PayPal Limited
Cartmanager - authorized reseller - Free EBAY, PayPal, Business and Law Forums - Ebay Suspension, PayPal Limited

You will quickly find that when an EBAY buyer makes a "significantly not as described claim," PayPal often sides with the buyer. It was not always this way. Short of the seller shipping a rock to the buyer (and even then...PayPal often would choose not to get involved), in the past PayPal would simply tell the parties that its job was to verify shipment and nothing else - that they did not get involved in disputes involving the goods themselves.

Of course, over the years this has changed, and today - when it comes to even if all the EBAY buyer claims is that the item was "scratched" or "Not new" or that you somehow misrepresented the listing, PayPal snags the money out of your account (even before deciding against you), and ultimately refunds your hard earned dollars to the buyer with the only condition being that the buyer return the goods to you.

To summarize: nowadays, on EBAY, at the slightest hint of a claim by the EBAY buyer for "significantly not as described" (and sadly, that adverb "significantly" is obviously used loosely), PayPal will:

1. PayPal will "temporarily deduct the disputed amount" from your account. Would that this deduction were but temporary!
2. PayPal will ask for your response to the buyer's "significantly not a described claim"
3. In almost all cases, PayPal will side with the buyer and issue a full refund to them on the condition that the buyer return the item to you, and pay the shipping. (And of course - if your PayPal address is not your own! then this can become a serious problem! for you - which is why you should follow Modee techniques for what kind of address to give PayPal.)

Now there are certain techniques to overcome even these EBAY/PayPal "significantly not as described claims" but they involve some methods that will not be posted in public.

But the point of this post is to explain that when a non-EBAY buyer makes a "significantly not as described" claim, PayPal reverts to the old PayPal rules, and pretty much ignores the buyer, giving him a response something like this:

Dear ____________,

Your buyer has chosen to escalate this dispute to a PayPal claim. By ending
communication with you and escalating to a claim, the buyer is asking
PayPal to investigate the case and decide the outcome. As part of our
investigation, PayPal reviewed any communication you may have had with the
buyer in the Resolution Center

We have received a complaint from a buyer who stated that merchandise you
sent them did not match your original description. The buyer is disputing
the quality of goods associated with the transaction detailed below.

As you may already be aware, PayPal's Buyer Complaint Policy applies only
to the shipment of goods and not to complaints about the attributes or
quality of goods received through an eBay transaction. Therefore, we will
not conduct an investigation into this matter at this time.

We do, however, reserve the right to begin an investigation within 180 days
if we determine it is necessary.

Now - do you see what I am saying? Same company, same PayPal, exact same type of dispute - and when the dispute has anything to do with EBAY, fasten your seatbelts because some funds are about to be whisked out of your account.

But if the dispute involves your own website, and not EBAY: the response comes in: "As you may already be aware, PayPal's Buyer Complaint Policy applies only
to the shipment of goods and not to complaints about the attributes or
quality of goods received through an eBay transaction."

[Modee]

P.S. And what is ironic is the word "Ebay" in the response - "As you may already be aware, PayPal's Buyer Complaint Policy applies only
to the shipment of goods and not to complaints about the attributes or
quality of goods received through an eBay transaction."

That was the response sent to me on the NON-Ebay related transaction - the sale from my own website. So...what does that mean? lol That PayPal never gets involved in "significantly not as described" disputes on EBAY transactions? Obviously not!What it does mean is that PayPal employees copy and paste a response to most anything that you ask them. And bottom line is...from my experience...when you're talking about a NON-Ebay PayPal transaction, short of non-receipt, the buyer is out of luck and PayPal will rule in the seller's favor.

[Modee]

I've investigated this further. The fine print in PayPal's user agreements worldwide differentiate between transactions ON and OFF Ebay.

In some countries, for example in Australia, the buyer is completely out of luck except for non-receipt claims, unless he bought the item off EBAY.
PayPal Purchase Protection for Buyers | PayPal AU

In Australia, Transactions ON Ebay are eligible for the "Buyer Protection Policy."

OFF Ebay transactions are eligible only for the "Buyer Complaint Policy," which applies only to claims of non-receipt.

There seems to be no gray area in between, at least in countries like Australia. Either you bought it on EBAY using PayPal and you can file a significantly not as described claim, or you bought it off EBAY and all you can claim is non-receipt.

In Australia, they define "significantly not as described" as:

1. The item is a completely different item to that which was presented by the seller in the listing, e.g. an audio book instead of a printed book, a desktop computer instead of a laptop, a picture of an item instead of the actual item; or an empty box;
2. The condition of the item is significantly different. For example, if the item has clearly been used multiple times rather than 'almost new' or 'still in box' or is obviously repackaged rather than 'mint';
3. The item is unusable and was not disclosed as such. For example, if there are missing major parts or components, will not function or turn on, or spoiled or past a relevant date. (NOTE: this applies to the item in its received state, no matter what the condition when it was sent);
4. The item is not authentic and was not disclosed as such. For example, if a **** or pirated item that was advertised as authentic or a completely different or inferior brand of a similar product; or
5. The item is missing a major portion or quantity. For example, if the buyer ordered 4 dozen golf balls but only received 1 dozen or 4 golf balls or the item is missing a primary component, like a blender missing a top or coffee maker missing the bottom plate.
   
   An item is not considered to be 'significantly not as described' if, for example:
6. The item fits into one of the 'significantly not as described' categories but was reasonably and prominently described in the listing as such. For example, if the listing states one of the following: "Item is being sold as is," "Item may not work properly," "Item is missing some parts," or "See picture for scratches or damages";
7. The item is not wanted by the buyer after s/he sees it in person but was properly described in the listing;
8. The description could have been reasonably misinterpreted by the buyer or the seller. For example, if the item is a different colour than advertised (e.g. the item is aqua-marine but was advertised as teal);
9. The item did not meet your expectations; or
10. Item has minor scratches but was listed as 'in used condition'.

Now in the U.S., the policy is slightly different. PayPal does not completely shut buyers out of "significantly not as described claims," at least not in theory, even if the purchase is off EBAY (such as from your own website):
PAYPAL USER AGREEMENT

Once again, PayPal-USA distinguishes between the "Buyer Protection Policy" (for EBAY purchases) and "Buyer Complaint Policy" (for everything else)

However, in the U.S., supposedly buyers are able to file "significantly not as described claims" for all purchases, on or off EBAY.

PayPal explains that "The PayPal Buyer Complaint Policy" is similar to "PayPal Buyer Protection" in that it enables buyers to file Disputes for Items Not Received (INR), or for items that are Significantly Not as Described (SNAD)."

But check out the fine print - By filing a Dispute, you can communicate with the seller and attempt to resolve the problem. If you are unable to resolve the problem, you may escalate an Item Not Receive (INR) Dispute to a Claim – but you may not escalate a Significantly Not as Described Dispute to a Claim.

This means that for off EBAY transactions, SURE the buyer can file a SNAD dispute, but once he escalates it to a claim, it will be automatically denied (which is what happened above to a couple of my buyers, as described in the early posts in these threads).

The definitions of SNAD, for purposes of EBAY claims, is similar but not quite as exhaustive as in Australia:

An item is Significantly Not as Described if it is materially different than what the seller described in the item listing. Here are some examples:

• You received a completely different item. Example: You purchased a book and received a DVD or an empty box.
• The condition of the item was misrepresented. Example: The listing said "new" and the item was used.
• The item was advertised as authentic but is not authentic.
• The item is missing major parts or features which were not disclosed in the listing.
• You purchased three items from a seller but only received two.
• The item was damaged during shipment.

An item is not Significantly Not as Described if it is materially similar to the seller’s item listing description. Here are some examples:

• The defect in the item was correctly described by the seller.
• The item was properly described but you didn't want it after you received it.
• The item was properly described but did not meet your expectations.
• The item has minor scratches and was listed as used condition.

IN THE END, what it comes down to for you, the seller (or buyer), is that if you do the transaction on EBAY, PayPal is predisposed to side with the buyer, especially for SNAD claims. But if the transaction has nothing to do with EBAY, then unless non-receipt is claimed, the buyer is out of luck.

[Modee]

The bottom line being: if you use your PayPal WITH Ebay, it falls under FAR closer scrutiny than if you use a PayPal account for solely non-EBAY transactions.

[chaptap566]

Paypal Dispute Outside of EBAY

Hello, recently someone emailed me thru ebay and wanted bulk of my items for sale for a deal. I agreed if he paid my invoice i sent him outside of ebay, because i didnt want to pay the fees. He got my product today and said they werent what he wanted, and wants his money back right away. Now the problem is on the software product i sell, there are a ton of product key serial numbers that im sure he could have written down. With these used the product is worthless.

Im sure he is going to start a dispute and file it as Item significantly not as described. My question is how do i fight this? will i win?

yes he paid me already and i have the money in my bank account.

[chaptap566]

As Always Modee you knowledge in this area is extremely extensive. Today i disputed the claim. about 5 minutes later i got an email from paypal saying:

You have chosen to escalate this dispute to a PayPal claim. By ending
communication with the buyer, you are asking PayPal to investigate the case
and decide the outcome. As part of our investigation, PayPal reviewed any
communication you may have had with the buyer in the Resolution Center.

We have received a complaint from a buyer who stated that merchandise you
sent them did not match your original description. The buyer is disputing
the quality of goods associated with the transaction detailed below.

As you may already be aware, PayPal's Buyer Complaint Policy applies only
to the shipment of goods and not to complaints about the attributes or
quality of goods received through an off eBay transaction. Therefore, we
will not conduct an investigation into this matter at this time.

We do, however, reserve the right to begin an investigation within 180 days
if we determine it is necessary.


It looks like i won. Thanks alot!!!


The last statement paypal made regarding they have the right to begin an investigation doesnt settle too well with me. What are the chances of that happening, and what are the processes their investigation includes?

[Modee]

I am glad it worked out. PayPal will not get involved again despite that 180 day disclaimer UNLESS the buyer files a chargeback with his credit card company, in which case PP will supposedly "dispute on your behalf" but almost always rules against you.

Couple of tips:

1. Whenever a buyer opens a dispute, I let him be the one to escalate it to an actual dispute. Two reasons:
a. It buys TIME. The more time that passes from the date of purchase, the less likely that he will be able to do a credit card company chargeback.
b. When the buyer is the one who escalates the matter, even if decided against him at least he feels that he was in the driver's seat. A good feeling to impart on the buyer if you know that the outcome is rigged - and that PayPal will automatically rule against him because it was a "not as described" OFF-Ebay transaction.

2. Try to reason with the buyer before he opens a PP dispute. Not necessarily because you are going to refund him at all, but so as to make it appear that the worst thing in the world you dread is a PP buyer dispute claim. Since YOU know that such a claim will be automatically decided in your favor so long as the transaction was done off-Ebay, you can afford to bluff and act as if you begrudgingly will accept PP's decision in this matter, but would rather have it decided between you without getting them involved. This makes the rigged outcome seem less biased.

[Modee]

PayPal Buyer Protection disputes - significantly not as described

PayPal now allows buyers to pick any one of the below categories to indicate why the item was not as described:

Provide Additional Information


Please provide some additional information about the transaction. In the text box below, let the seller know why you are opening this dispute. Be as specific as possible about the problem and let the seller know how they can help you by providing some options for resolution.
How was the item significantly not as described? Damaged Externally damagedFor example:

• Scratched, cracked, chipped, ripped, or dented
• Stained

Internally damagedFor example:

• Doesn't power on
• Doesn't function properly

**** Copy of originalFor example:

• Bootleg or pirated copy
• Photocopy

ImitationFor example:

• Counterfeit handbag, clothing, watch

Incomplete Missing parts that prevent item from being usedFor example:

• Missing computer processor or motor

Missing quantityFor example:

• You ordered 12 units but received 6

Other Shipping cost issues
Sales tax issues

Materially Different Entirely different itemFor example:

• You ordered a book but received a brick

Different design or material
Different model, version, or sizeFor example:

• Incompatible operating system
• Motorcycle engine v. automobile engine
• Shoes too small to wear

Less valuable substitute
Significant color difference
Slight color difference
Used when described as newFor example:

• Original listing said it was "new" or "mint"

Unusable Ruined food or plantsFor example:

• Spoiled food
• Dead or wilted plant

Time-sensitive item arrived lateFor example:

• Concert ticket

[Modee]

All this means - LOOK OUT! because PayPal is eager to rule in a Buyer's favor for "Not as Described" disputes that occur on Ebay.

[djrichclub90]

eBay deciding in buyer's favor in transactions outside of eBay!

Recently, I had 3 transactions outside of eBay in which the buyers filed "not as described" disputes. After regularly deciding in my favor as the seller in the past (since these transactions took place outside off eBay), the last 3 ones have been decided in the buyers' favor even though the transactions took place outside of eBay. They were allowed to return the items to me and got refunded through PayPal. Right after, my account got permanently limited. So it seems that PayPal decides in the buyer's favor if there's an excessive amount of "not as described" claims, even if they take place outside of eBay.

[Modee]

Interesting. I have not had the misfortune of that experience yet.